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03-11-2019 16:51
Baltic where are you.

12-10-2019 23:44
Still here, shame Baltic seems not to be joining anymore. Still, he keeps giving us this place. 2020 is around the corner. Grin

08-08-2019 23:19
Hey buddy. Nice to hear from you. And girlfriend, after many years...so do I ! Shock

28-07-2019 15:19
HI TB! Yep, still around. Haven't been here for months though, all well, have a girlfriend, Shock

11-07-2019 01:38
Hey guys. Are we all still around?

28-04-2019 18:53
So, was a while not around, am just here to see whats happening

07-02-2019 02:20
Hi Spy. I was in Germany for about 1.5 years. Glad to be back in the USA except for this crazy President

11-11-2018 14:51
Half Life 3 VR, Valve is working on 3 new big titles, in VR! Will HL3 be one of those?

05-11-2018 20:11
WOW! How fast time flies by! One more month and 2018 is coming to a end! What kind of great games will we play in 2019 ???

06-10-2018 16:56
I read your old thread about moving to there and in there you said you would go from 2017 to 2019, o well, it is indeed almost 2019.

Shoutbox Archive
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CtA on Crosus
fitzroy_doll
SPY wrote:
well, that sounds indeed reasonable. still, like he says himself;

"...so I wonder how it made its way into the agreement"

guess best is we still write also, so they know there more modders who don't like this, otherwise they could think its only one modder.

leon


I think the person I've been talking to is an admin - we'll have to wait and see what the people actually running the site say. But yes, everyone with concerns should write in independently. or or the address Phillip posted above.
 
http://www.amphibian.myzen.co.uk/css_sci_fi/
planetphillip
I'd like to apologize for my handling of this situation. It's clear to me now that I over-reacted and tended to sensationalize the issue. In all my dealings with Isotx they have been professional and reasonable.

That's not to say they were blameless but things could have been done differently.

Allow me to explain how things happened, if nothing but to make me feel better.

I was in negotiations with Isotx for adding maps and mods listed on PP. Emails went back and forth with various ideas and suggestions. Eventually some months later I started to attempt to upload some maps.

In effect I was beta testing the upload system. I encountered a number of problems and passed details of these onto the Crosus lead. It was during this time that I noticed the rather stringent submission agreement. I mentioned the submission agreement to Mark Geigel in an email dated 3 April 2008.

Here is the quote:
"We now come to something that probably isn't your domain but since you are now the contact it's your ear that gets it!
I admit that I'm in a bad mood and tend to get a little pernickety but that Upload Agreement will probably stop me uploading anything.

I didn't read it all, (yes, I agree I should have done that before complaining, but honestly who does?).
There's no way I am going to upload stuff and pass the rights to use and sell to you.

I am guessing now but over 50%, if not more, of the uploads will be by people like me, i.e. not the authors of the maps. I'm sure I read somewhere that you expect uploaders to contact the authors but since the author may never see the agreement that seems a little unfair.

I am pretty sure that the agreement is more for covering your backs than any planned intention to sell or use the material but that's not the point."

Whilst I did receive a reply to my other points this one was never responded to.

That was my last contact with them.

Yesterday I decide to see how things had changed. As I was browsing I noticed Leon's CtA. It was then that I started to look more carefully and notice a few more popular mods. I immediately posted this thread and chatted with one other mod author via MSN.

Since I felt so strongly about the agreement and the fact that Leon knew nothing about it I started to contact other people.

I never had a doubt they would remove the mods if asked, but still feel they acted unfairly.

As I noted in my email to them, most of the mods have been uploaded by their website's users but Rock 24 was uploaded by one of the owners/admins. At least he is the first name on their people page. Now, he should have known better. If you expect the users to contact the original author's then the head honcho should too!

So, all in all, I'm sure they will be very reasonable about everything but they had ample chance to improve the submission agreement.

I hope that clarifies things. It made me feel better!
Edited by planetphillip on 04-06-2008 18:51
It may be difficult at first,...in the middle....and at the end... so pay somebody else to do it.
(Inspired by CubeDude89 who was inspired by Baltic!)
 
http://www.planetphillip.com/index.php
planetphillip
Oh, BTW Spy the CSS Sci-Fi mod by fitzroy_doll is SP. It's incorrectly labeld on their site

It may be difficult at first,...in the middle....and at the end... so pay somebody else to do it.
(Inspired by CubeDude89 who was inspired by Baltic!)
 
http://www.planetphillip.com/index.php
Bluestrike
I have not given them any permisions either to host my singleplayer, and I would not agree with that kind of conditions even if I could:
Their submission agreement does not allow to have much mods uploaded anyway since its all property from Valve for HL2 mods when it comes down to any selling rights etc.
Edited by Bluestrike on 04-06-2008 21:55
 
http://www.bluestrike.be
Baltic Forever
Well I’m not surprised to hear that none of us have given permission.

But it’s obvious that they knew about the agreement before they posted it Phillip. After all they did write it and the legal team put it into words which are difficult to understand.

What they should be doing is to contact the author of the mod, just to verify that they have given permission for their mod to be uploaded.

The question now is... what do we do about it (if anything)?
Oh and I agree with Bluestrike that it’s all property from Valve, so they couldn’t sell the mod even if they wanted to.
I just wonder if Valve knows about their agreement.
< It may be difficult at first. But don't Give Up. >
 
Bladesinger
I accepted to add Combine Destiny way back when they were just a new and small group of people, and I'm quite sure I never saw nor accepted any agreement like that.

But I think it's good that they have confirmed that it's not meant to be there.
 
Baltic Forever
Lets just hope that they remove that part of the agreement.
Time will tell.
< It may be difficult at first. But don't Give Up. >
 
SPY
well, no, that's to easy Peter.
at least, that's what i think.
its true, they can't sell it, but i also can't live with the rights they say they have, to add or cut in the mods as they see fit to. that i also don't want to happen, probebly they never will, but that's not the point. they simply can't state that! periode!

so, i will now write them a mail myself, and let you know what answer comes back on it from them, if any comes.

and its not only CtoA, as you know have i made many mappacks and mods, also with other games. and they could also be added to that site. so, they have to change it, or they take CtoA away, and they NEVER may place anything else i mapped.
i can state that, and i will.

i for one do not understand those agreements at all, i believe there 9 pages long(?) i read somewhere. if that is the case, that's even more silly. its 'only' a download site, why so many agreements. they only collect otherw work and make it avaleble to the public.
and i say it again, you can't host things, and then put the responsebility for that by the figure who uploads it, while you know that most if not all mods will not be uploaded by the makers themselves. that's so easy to state, and i'm pretty sure its not even right in the eyes of the real law and rights. and again, what will valve say about this, they will surtenly not like it at all!!!

leon

(will add my writing to them later today here also).


edit;


here is my mail that i just have sent to 2 of there adresses, yep, i'm still very mad about this, as you can tell by reading it;

__________________________________________________________________





hello,



My name is Leon brinkmann and i am the mapper of "Coastline to Atmosphere", that Isotx seems to host here;





http://www.isotx....hp?id=2479





could be that Isotx host some of my many other sp-mappack or mods, that i haven't checked.



my main problem with Isotx is that this site has some very odd agreements that i can't agree to.



the main thing is that Isotx says that it has the rights to sell, cut in or add to a mod whatever they like, (please see this small part of your agreement where this is stated in!!Wink





While you retain ownership in the Submission Material, by submitting it, you agree that we have a worldwide, perpetual, royalty-free, irrevocable, fully paid-up, transferable, sublicensable, right and license (a) to host, cache, store, maintain, use, reproduce, distribute, display and perform (whether publicly or otherwise), prepare derivative works of and otherwise modify, make, sell, offer to sell, import, export and otherwise use and exploit (and have others exercise such rights on our behalf) all or any portion of such Submission Material, in any form or media (now known or later developed); to modify all or any portion of such Submission Material, including, without limitation, the making of additions to it or deletions from it, regardless of the effect of such modifications on the integrity of such Submission Material;





and that the up loader of the mod should first check if the makers of a game mod approve of uploading there work to Isotx.



i didn't upload my mod, and was never asked also by the one who did, (don't know who did this).



but i sure don't approve these agreements!! i work for more then 1,5 years Dayle many hours on these mods, and then a site who i didn't even know just thinks he has the rights to do whatever they please to do with my work, that i think is very wrong!!! (better said; i my country this is called Steeling!!!!)

i also don't understand why you guys stated this, what is the point. beside this, you never even can state this, because all rights are always in the hands of the makers of the game itself, (in my case its half life2, so Valve has the rights, and i guess you can get real trouble with this if valve knows you're doing this, valve is very serious in these things!!!)



i really think, that when a map/mod or whatever is uploaded, you first need to check if the MAKERS give permission to host, and not the up loader. and forget all together that part of your agreement that i have stated above.



i always add a .txt file to my maps mods where i always have added this line to;



===========================================================================
* Permissions*

All original and composed textures or assets in this level remain property of
the sources respective owners.
You MAY distribute this ZIP in any not-for-profit electronic format (BBS, Internet,
CD, etc) as long as you contact one of us first, and include all files, including this readme, intact in
the original archive.

===========================================================================



so, you could have asked me, or my friend Baltic.Forever whit who i made CtoA.





therefore i want to ask you, please DELETE Coastline to Atmosphere all together from ISOTX !!!!



or give me in writing that you delete the part above described by me from your agreement, and, should you want to upload any of my other work (i will add a list below), then the same counts for them, and, it would be nice if you asked me first if you can host it all together. i think its not more then normal, that when you want to host someone else his work, that you first ask to do so. is that to much asked?? just one small mail, that's all.





believe me, i sp-map now for more then 8 years!! and have made over 100 sp-maps, and there all hosted by many sites, with over 160.000 downloads or more. but i NEVER have experienced this, that a site, that seems to be ok, and looks professional enough works like this.



I AM REALY VERY ANGRY ABOUT THIS !!!!!! (for severel days!!!)



you simply can't do this !!!!!!





a very angry mapper!!!



this is what i have worked on, and should you have any of these mappacks or mods, then please take them also down, or change those idiotic agreements!!!





leon brinkmann, (aka SPY-maps)





sp-mappacks and sp-mods;





LeonQuake2

leonSof2NPC_test

LeonSof2_1

LeonSof2_2

LeonSof2_3

LeonSof2_4 (Mortal_Coil)

LeonSPMappack (HL2)

Coasline to Atmosphere

LeonCod1

LeonCod2

LeonCod2_SP-map

LeonPreySP



should i have forgotten any, that clearly has my name under it, then please take them also down.





don't get me wrong, the more exposure the better, but i NEVER will give up my rights just to be hosted somewhere, i mapped long before Isotx was around.





(this mail i will sent to;



<>

technical





<>

support


because i didn't know which address was the best.
Edited by SPY on 05-06-2008 08:13
Look for my Sof2, Quake2, Cod, HL2, Cod2, Prey sp-map in the Download section of SP-mods.com
 
http://www.leon.triplebit.nl/
fitzroy_doll
Phillip - you did the right thing by bringing this to everyone's attention. This would have passed me by completely had you not raised the issue, and rights management is something we should all pay more attention to.

Everyone else - just write to with instructions for them to remove your work and an explanation of your objections. They took my mod off the server (so they say) very quickly and will probably do the same for you too. The more people that object the quicker they'll have to change things.
 
http://www.amphibian.myzen.co.uk/css_sci_fi/
SPY
indeed, well, i have mailed them that mail i showed in my last comment and i already got there asnwer back, here is there mail;
(i have made there comments in big black letters; they even start with spelling my name wrong, but okWink


Hi Leo,



My name is Byron.



Thank you for letting Isotx know about your concerns.



I would like to review the agreement that you are referring to, since I agree from your statements that some changes seem in order. It is possible that the wrong agreement was used, since; unfortunately, we are forced to use many types of 99% meaningless legal agreements to protect us from lawsuits.



The most important point I want to make to you is as follows:



<!--[if !supportLists]-->01. <!--[endif]-->Isotx will immediately act on your removal request.

<!--[if !supportLists]-->02. <!--[endif]-->I will review the agreement you are referring to, as soon as I can identify which one it is.

<!--[if !supportLists]-->03. <!--[endif]-->If after we have made changes that properly address you concerns, you choose to re-host your content – we will be happy to re-activate your content



I should also emphasize that (to the best of my knowledge) no matter what any agreement says, we have absolutely no rights to your IP unless you specifically assign it to us. We are a strong supporter of preserving the IP of people like yourself and ourselves; so all your comments are taken very seriously; and appreciated.



For further information, please note my comments below, thanks.




hello,



My name is Leon brinkmann and i am the mapper of "Coastline to Atmosphere", that Isotx seems to host here;

[b]++++ Greetings.




http://www.isotx....hp?id=2479





could be that Isotx host some of my many other sp-mappack or mods, that i haven't checked.



my main problem with Isotx is that this site has some very odd agreements that i can't agree to.



the main thing is that Isotx says that it has the rights to sell, cut in or add to a mod whatever they like, (please see this small part of your agreement where this is stated in!!Wink


[b]++++ Well I wholeheartedly agree with you. But I do have a few questions:


<!--[if !supportLists]-->01. <!--[endif]-->Which agreement are you referring to?[/b]

<!--[if !supportLists]-->02. <!--[endif]-->Aside from the point that such IP assignment language does not belong in a hosting agreement; I should point out that, based upon my understanding of international IP law, only you have the right to assign your IP rights, not 3rd party up-loaders.





While you retain ownership in the Submission Material, by submitting it, you agree that we have a worldwide, perpetual, royalty-free, irrevocable, fully paid-up, transferable, sublicensable, right and license (a) to host, cache, store, maintain, use, reproduce, distribute, display and perform (whether publicly or otherwise), prepare derivative works of and otherwise modify, make, sell, offer to sell, import, export and otherwise use and exploit (and have others exercise such rights on our behalf) all or any portion of such Submission Material, in any form or media (now known or later developed); to modify all or any portion of such Submission Material, including, without limitation, the making of additions to it or deletions from it, regardless of the effect of such modifications on the integrity of such Submission Material;





and that the up loader of the mod should first check if the makers of a game mod approve of uploading there work to Isotx.



i didn't upload my mod, and was never asked also by the one who did, (don't know who did this).



but i sure don't approve these agreements!! i work for more then 1,5 years Dayle many hours on these mods, and then a site who i didn't even know just thinks he has the rights to do whatever they please to do with my work, that i think is very wrong!!! (better said; i my country this is called Steeling!!!!)

i also don't understand why you guys stated this, what is the point. beside this, you never even can state this, because all rights are always in the hands of the makers of the game itself, (in my case its half life2, so Valve has the rights, and i guess you can get real trouble with this if valve knows you're doing this, valve is very serious in these things!!!)

++++ We have absolutely no interest in taking anything from you, and the truth is we have only the rights you choose to allow us. We offer a free service to the community, at considerable expense. We need people like you to like what we do, not think badly of us. We need your support , not your enmity.



i really think, that when a map/mod or whatever is uploaded, you first need to check if the MAKERS give permission to host, and not the up loader. and forget all together that part of your agreement that i have stated above.



i always add a .txt file to my maps mods where i always have added this line to;



===========================================================================
* Permissions*

All original and composed textures or assets in this level remain property of
the sources respective owners.
You MAY distribute this ZIP in any not-for-profit electronic format (BBS, Internet,
CD, etc) as long as you contact one of us first, and include all files, including this readme, intact in
the original archive.

===========================================================================



so, you could have asked me, or my friend Baltic.Forever whit who i made CtoA.





therefore i want to ask you, please DELETE Coastline to Atmosphere all together from ISOTX !!!!

++++ Understood, we will de-activate Coastline immediately.



or give me in writing that you delete the part above described by me from your agreement, and, should you want to upload any of my other work (i will add a list below), then the same counts for them, and, it would be nice if you asked me first if you can host it all together. i think its not more then normal, that when you want to host someone else his work, that you first ask to do so. is that to much asked?? just one small mail, that's all.

++++ I will study the agreement, but first I need to know which agreement you are referring to.





believe me, i sp-map now for more then 8 years!! and have made over 100 sp-maps, and there all hosted by many sites, with over 160.000 downloads or more. but i NEVER have experienced this, that a site, that seems to be ok, and looks professional enough works like this.



I AM REALY VERY ANGRY ABOUT THIS !!!!!! (for severel days!!!)

++++ I am sorry you spent several days stewing, but we cannot address your concerns unless we know about them.



you simply can't do this !!!!!!





a very angry mapper!!!

++++ You have made your point, no need to be hostile !!!!!!







this is what i have worked on, and should you have any of these mappacks or mods, then please take them also down, or change those idiotic agreements!!!

++++ I will ask our team to carefully review our content for your maps; or if you see any content of yours hosted on our site please let me know and it will be removed as soon a spossible.



leon brinkmann, (aka SPY-maps)





sp-mappacks and sp-mods;





LeonQuake2

leonSof2NPC_test

LeonSof2_1

LeonSof2_2

LeonSof2_3

LeonSof2_4 (Mortal_Coil)

LeonSPMappack (HL2)

Coasline to Atmosphere

LeonCod1

LeonCod2

LeonCod2_SP-map

LeonPreySP



should i have forgotten any, that clearly has my name under it, then please take them also down.





don't get me wrong, the more exposure the better, but i NEVER will give up my rights just to be hosted somewhere, i mapped long before Isotx was around.





(this mail i will sent to;



<>

technical





<>

support

because i didn't know which address was the best.
Edited by SPY on 05-06-2008 12:45
Look for my Sof2, Quake2, Cod, HL2, Cod2, Prey sp-map in the Download section of SP-mods.com
 
http://www.leon.triplebit.nl/
SPY
i have mailed them back again, with this mail;

hello Byron,



sorry that i maybe did sound very hostile, but i couldn't help myself.



but, i am a very quiet guy who isn't hostile at all. its just that i take my mapping and effort for that very serieus.



i will follow this with great interest and see what will happen, please change these agreements and you will see that i would love to find my work back on your site!!



you asked me where i did find that agreement part that i showed, well, i will place a bigger part of your agreement, maybe its then easier to find it back for you, (i understand that you have to have some sort of agreement to be save qua law suits, but i really think that this part of the agreement is meeningless, and can be left out. it doesn't serve any perpose at all, looking at it from a law point of view so to speak.



here is the relevant passges from the aggreement:

2. Instructions for submitting Submission Material (“Instructions”) can be found on the Website <http://www.crosus.com> Submission Material must meet all the specifications and requirements relating to formatting, compatibility, operating characteristics and submission which can also be found on the Website. While you retain ownership in the Submission Material, by submitting it, you agree that we have a worldwide, perpetual, royalty-free, irrevocable, fully paid-up, transferable, sublicensable, right and license (a) to host, cache, store, maintain, use, reproduce, distribute, display and perform (whether publicly or otherwise), prepare derivative works of and otherwise modify, make, sell, offer to sell, import, export and otherwise use and exploit (and have others exercise such rights on our behalf) all or any portion of such Submission Material, in any form or media (now known or later developed); (to modify all or any portion of such Submission Material, including, without limitation, the making of additions to it or deletions from it, regardless of the effect of such modifications on the integrity of such Submission Material; and (c) [to identify you, or not to identify you, as the creator of the Submission Material or any portion thereof.][to discuss] You further waive any “moral” rights or other rights with respect to authorship or integrity of such Submission Material that you may have under any applicable laws. We shall have the right to use, assign or dispose of the Submission Material however we see fit without approval of or compensation to, you or any third party.
We have the right to license, authorize and/or otherwise enter into agreements and arrangements with third parties to do or perform any of the activities, exercise any of the rights and/or undertake any of the responsibilities granted or imposed under this Agreement, in whole or in part.




so, again, forgive my hostile looking mail, and thanks for deleting the CtoA mod, and i really hope that i will soon see that Isotx has deleted these agreements so i can ask you to place CtoA mod again, and all my other work if possible.



leon

Look for my Sof2, Quake2, Cod, HL2, Cod2, Prey sp-map in the Download section of SP-mods.com
 
http://www.leon.triplebit.nl/
Baltic Forever
Thanks for keeping us informed SPY.
It's strange because I thought they only had one agreement. But it sounds like they have multiple agreements Shock
< It may be difficult at first. But don't Give Up. >
 
TB Biggs
We are indeed in a new era where people can take what others did for free and then make rules about how they want that free material to be used!

I was glad to see a professional response, and the immediate action to remove the requested mods.

Thanks to PP for bringing this attention to some of the heavy hitters in the modding industry together. SP Modder's Unite!
The inner machinations of my mind are an enigma.
 
SPY
well, we are a step (day) furhter again, and i do have to say, they keep friendly all the way, and they only did seem to state this because they wanted to be covered from all angles qua lawsuits, still, you can't state these things, and they seem to aprove now.

another strange things is, that this part of the agreement doesn't even seem to count for us modders,(???? is this true, i haven't read it all to be honest, but, its simply un readeble).

i have receeved a new mail that i will now publish here;

__________________________________________________________________

Dear Leo,



Thank you for taking the time to point out the deficiency with our Submission agreement.



01. TEMPORARY MEASURE: Effectively the next 48 hrs, or sooner, we will be changing the agreement as follows: (see below).



02. PERMANENT MEASURE: In addition we will ask a lawyer to review the agreement with an eye to making it more appropriate for 3rd party hosting.



Item 02 may take a few weeks.



Please bear in mind that your content was never in any jeopardy since clause 2 of the agreement did not apply to you or your content. However your email highlighted a lack of clarity with our agreement that we really need to fix.



Again, thank you.



Regards,



Byron


(the made the letters of the part bigger that is taken out of for now, but i have left the rest of the text away, and will only show here the parts that will be deleted from the agreement text)


prepare derivative works of and otherwise modify, make, sell, offer to sell

(and)



(Cool to modify all or any portion of such Submission Material, including, without limitation, the making of additions to it or deletions from it, regardless of the effect of such modifications on the integrity of such Submission Material and (c) [to identify you, or not to identify you, as the creator of the Submission Material or any portion thereof.][to discuss]
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________






i have mailed him back with this last mail of mine, thought i have made reacted indeed a bit hostile the first time, so i have apolotiaced for it. but i just feel strongly about this, everyone can play my maps for free, but no one may take rights from it, (other then the makers and valve in this case).


















hello Byron,





let me start with saying that i am very pleased that you take this very serieus and act on it right away, that prooves to me that your site is willing to do the best that is possible for all parties!



and, like i stated in my first mail, Isotx does look good, and does provice a great service, and i woul be proud to see my work hosted there. it was just that one part in the agrement.

you said that;



"...since clause 2 of the agreement did not apply to you or your content."



that really amazes me, i didn't know that. i thought this counted for everything, (included mods) that are hosted on Isotx.



seems i have to apolotiace to you, because i complained about something that wasn;t true then, it wasn;t ment for me, sorry for that!



i do understand that Isotx has to cover his grounds qua lawsuits, but, its really nearly impossible to read the full agreements, and understand them. i haven't counted it, but someone said the full agreements take 9 pages long (?!!) is this true.



because i really can't understand that you need to put so many words in it, it makes it un redeble, i have hearted this from many people yet, they simply couldn't read it, myself included.



and then there is one latest point that i would like to adress to you, and this is not only with Isotx but many hosting sites do this. and that would be that it would be nice that when someone uploads a mod to Isotx (what most of the times isn;t the maker of the mod, but just someone who did download it somewhere else), that Isotx then mails the maker of the mod, (there adress can be found in 90% of the cases in the read me.txt file of the mod that is included) and ask or tell that they will host the mod.



this is not even so much so the maker can aproove, because he will always aprove under normal condisions, but just to let the maker know that his work is also hosted there, so he can track it and see how popular it gets there, (to see how many downloads it get, because every searieus mapper/modder wants to know this, feels good to know your work is apriciated, right?Smile





again, i apoliticae for my hostile mail, the first one, it was never my intent.



i will follow Isotx and want to thank you for all your serieus thoughts and i hope to see isotx grow further in to a real game community serving hosting site.



Leon Brinkmann, (aka SPY-maps)



the Netherlands.
Edited by SPY on 06-06-2008 11:58
Look for my Sof2, Quake2, Cod, HL2, Cod2, Prey sp-map in the Download section of SP-mods.com
 
http://www.leon.triplebit.nl/
Baltic Forever
Well it's a start. But there is still no guarantee that the illegal content will be deleted.

to modify all or any portion of such Submission Material, including, without limitation, the making of additions to it or deletions from it, regardless of the effect of such modifications on the integrity of such Submission Material and (c) [to identify you, or not to identify you, as the creator of the Submission Material or any portion thereof.


But I'm sure that it will be deleted in part (now I'm sounding like a lawyer Grin )

We will see what happens in the next few weeks.
< It may be difficult at first. But don't Give Up. >
 
SPY
you're right, this also should be delete from the agreement,
it still amazes me that they use so much text for this, they only host, so why need this all.
and, he said this all doesn't count for modders, (?).

and, Isotx's CtoA has only be downloaded 4 times or so now, so why bother i think,.haha. took already to much time this all, so i leave it for now. but, we really should look in to this in 4 weeks time or so.,

leon
Look for my Sof2, Quake2, Cod, HL2, Cod2, Prey sp-map in the Download section of SP-mods.com
 
http://www.leon.triplebit.nl/
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